Sheldon Mills: Welcome to Habit Masters. I'm Sheldon. I'm Jeff. we're trying to help people bridge the gap between where they are and where they want to be. And there's nothing more fundamental. to that than in our relationships, right? Especially with our spouse or significant others. And we have a special guest, Jay Dee, from Uncovering Intimacy, today's .
I've been a fan of his for a long time. , real quick, , there's nothing explicit in this conversation, but we do talk about intimacy and sexuality.
So, this may or may not be one you want to share with your kids. Again, I've been a fan of his for quite a while. , Jeff, you had a good explanation of what sums it up.
Can you share what this is about today? Yeah. In this conversation, I feel like he really helps you see how to connect better with, your significant other and not just have an enduring relationship, but have an exciting relationship too. So pretty fun. He's a Christian intimacy, , coach. And, , I love that he does not shy away from hard questions. So I think for a lot of people, this might be very enlightening. So hope you love it as much as we did.
All right. I'd like to welcome Jay Dee from Uncovering Intimacy with us here today. Welcome. Welcome. Thank you. I'm so, I'm excited. I've been following you for quite some time now. I've been on your newsletter for a long time and purchased several things, your digital downloads. And it's fun to you know, Christian sex and marriage there are not therapists, counselor, or what are you?
Jay Dee: Coach, yeah. I got to be careful legally with my title there.
Sheldon Mills: Yes, it's true. So for our audience who may not be familiar with you, can you just share, you know, a little bit about your ministry and where you come from?
Jay Dee: Yeah. So, I started my website because frankly, my wife and I got married. We were the first of, I have three siblings.
She had four sisters. So we were both the eldest in our families and we got married. We are the first of all our friends got married. First everything basically, so no one to tell us, Hey, watch out for this or anything. No one to talk to other than people who are like, you know, , 20, 30 years older than us.
And when everything was not amazing we frankly didn't know what to do. And basically across the board communication was bad, finances were bad, sex was bad, everything just bad. And , I mean, 22 years ago now there was not much help. You could read all the books you want, but you weren't going to go to someone in your church and go, hey, how do you do the marriage thing?
Because no one else is talking about it, so you just assume everybody else is doing great and you're failing. At
Sheldon Mills: church. Everybody talks about it, but not talking about the stuff that's like we're struggling with or Yeah,
Jay Dee: yeah. Yeah. They, I mean, they'll all say, oh, marriage is hard work. I'm like, yes, I agree.
What is the work like, tell you that part, like how do we how to do this?
Jeff Corrigan: What's the story?
Jay Dee: Yeah. Because they won't tell you that part. They'll just tell you it's hard work. Yes, I know. You have to be humble. Okay. Got that. How, where? Why? Like when? All that stuff kind of gets glossed over. So, eventually we got to a point that we were like, You know what?
Divorce is not okay, but murder? Maybe murder? Maybe suicide? You know, one of those. That's kind of the joke, alright? You know, that's... That's a better option than divorces anyway. So anyway, we decided not to kill each other or ourselves and what we kind of sat down one day and just went, Hey have to fix this because we're not leaving.
Let's do something. And so we started working on communication first because you can't really fix anything else without that. And then we started working on budgeting because budgeting was easier than fixing sex. And then we started fixing sex. Once we kind of got a handle on budgeting, if you can handle finances, I'm like, you can handle sex.
That's okay. That's kind of next step. And then kind of after we kind of turned things around, this is probably year eight of our marriage I kind of looked around and went. I got to tell other people about this, that there has to be a resource out there. So I actually started a website called sex within marriage.
Which is why my podcast is called sex within marriage. And then after a few years of writing that I realized I was writing about way more than just sex in marriage. I was writing about marriage holistically. So then I re rebranded and renamed to uncovering intimacy I'm somehow like 600 articles under my belt now and started podcasting.
I think I just passed a hundred and some odd podcast episodes and I. Actually went to school, got a diploma in life coaching, which a specialization in marriage coaching. And then I started coaching and everything is basically , because somebody will ask me for help and I'll go try to find a way to help them better.
Yeah. So all my resources are because somebody has said, Hey, how do I do this? I'm like, Good question. Let me build something for you. Hey, I, my husband won't read your blog. Could you do podcasts? I could probably figure out how to do that. Let me go figure out how to do that. Hey, do you do coaching?
I don't let me go figure out how to do coaching. And then I will kind of thing. And pretty much the whole thing is just spun out from people saying, Hey, how do we do this? How can you help me do this?
Sheldon Mills: That's beautiful. Cause , there's been a need and you've went to fulfill it, so I love that.
Jay Dee: Yeah. That, yeah. That's very cool. Well, I like, think of it as I'm not smart enough to figure out what people need, but I am pretty good at finding solutions when they come to me with problems, . That's,
Jeff Corrigan: that is awesome. Yeah, so I feel the same way. I'm always like, I, you know, if you come to me with a question, I can probably figure out an answer for you or some solutions, , but figuring out what you need in advance is a definite challenge.
Sheldon Mills: So I was telling, sorry, I don't mean to change the subject completely. I was telling Jeff before you jumped on that I can't remember how long I've been following you at that your podcast or not your podcast your blog, your newsletter for quite some time. And I've even purchased some of your digital resources and stuff.
And so I'm a big fan. And one of the things that I really like is we're Christian, you're a Christian. So it's through this lens of you know, discipleship in Christ and trying to be a good husband or a good spouse. And yet you also do not shy away from things. And you address topics that I'm like, I don't hear other people, even like marriage and sex counselors.
Talking about so I think that's really
Jay Dee: cool. Yeah, I've kind of become known as tackling all the things No one wants to touch with a 10 foot pole Sometimes get me in trouble I've been told by more than one pastor that they can't wait to see me in hell, which is an interesting threat Because it kind of means that they'll be there, too
Jeff Corrigan: He said, well, I mean, that's what
Jay Dee: happens, you know, you say, yeah, he says that the world will hate you if you follow him. So, well, and sometimes the people are in the church. Yeah. You know, I,
Sheldon Mills: I once heard it said, if you're making everybody happy, you're doing it wrong. Right.
Jay Dee: So yeah, absolutely.
Jeff Corrigan: Yeah. So maybe we need to make some more enemies.
That's our goal now. Turn some people off. That'll be our goal. I'm sure we already do. No. Yeah.
Jay Dee: It happens. I was telling them earlier that I got two rejections letters actually this week of businesses that said, no, , we don't want to work with you because even though we're Christian and we think your message is good we can't handle that.
Jeff Corrigan: Yeah, they're not, we don't want to touch those topics.
Jay Dee: Yeah. One of them, I actually posted on my Instagram because I wanted to post like, Hey, I get rejection letters too. Here's one of them. And man, a lot of people really like that. I think people like to know that they're not alone. Yeah. I is what I hear a lot of I get a lot of emails from people saying, you know, what I like about this is I get to see other people's struggles and know that they're not just my struggles.
Jeff Corrigan: Yeah. It's yeah, I think it's helpful to know that you're not the only ones slogging through it. Right. I think we have there's gotta be. Somebody out there that needs help too, that's struggling with the same stuff. And one of the questions that I kind of just thought as we were coming into this conversation, you've done quite a bit of coaching at this point.
And I do some coaching and mentoring as well. And we have lots of couples who listen to our podcast and and some of them that I'm coaching are actually starting businesses, and I'm wondering, from your perspective, that obviously has the potential to be somewhat of an obstacle in people's marriages.
Hey, we're starting a business together. So what would you suggest to those couples who are starting a business together? They haven't necessarily done businesses together in the past. Like, how can they avoid, or at least, Plan for some of the pitfalls obstacles they might find along the way.
Jay Dee: Oh, that's a good
Jeff Corrigan: question Maybe you don't have an answer that but you know, whatever you've experienced over your time here
Jay Dee: I think some of them kind of overlap with just marriage in general I find a lot of the people I talk to they start off with the wrong attitude in marriage You know, they're a lot of them have, well, a lot of us, I would say almost everybody gets into marriage for the wrong reason.
You know, we find someone that makes us feel good and then we're like, yeah, I want to feel like this forever. So I'm going to marry them. And then at some point along the way, you realize that they're not going to make you happy all the time and you have to change. And so, you know, whether you're going into your marriage together or you're starting a business together, if your idea is like, Hey this person is going to make my life easier than you should adjust your attitude because it's not necessarily going to be that way, you know, you're going to have weeks that are rough you know, we've delayed this podcast recording for a couple of weeks because my wife fell off a horse and got a concussion and you know, for the last two weeks, it's not been a lot of you know, love flowing from her way to my way.
It's been more going the other way because she's got a concussion. You know, and one of the symptoms of concussions are that you're not very happy and you tend to be a little irritable and you're confused and you're angry and you can't do anything about it. Your brain's squishy, you know, so, , but there's always going to be times with that, whether, you know, you have a spouse that's going through depression or they're going through pregnancy or they experienced a job loss or grief or who knows what's going to happen.
You're always going to hit a point where. If your primary goal is like, Oh, they're going to make me happy, then it's going to fail. And you're going to wonder why am I married? So if you instead have you, you have to adjust it to be like no, my goal here is to make them happy. I
Jeff Corrigan: love that. Yeah.
Sheldon and I've talked a lot about taking 100 percent responsibility in your relationship, especially your marital relationship. And I think you just. You explained it perfectly what that means. It's like my goal is to, yeah, make them happy, right? Be the best possible husband I can be, or spouse I can be.
Jay Dee: I think after a while, like I'm coming up on 23 years and I'm starting to realize now that I'm adjusting it to be not just make them happy, but to try to figure out what it is she needs versus what it is she wants. And that's an even harder step that takes. Even more kind of dedication and planning and paying attention because we don't usually know what we need.
We know what we want and then we get it and we realize it's not what we need and actually doesn't make us happy. So then trying to be that for your spouse, because sometimes you can see things that they need more than we can see ourselves. Right. Yeah. And that's kind of my next step, but that's maybe a little hard to shoot for right off the bat.
That takes a couple of decades of paying attention. No,
Sheldon Mills: that's a great point though. I finished a book called Brain Talk by Shnarsh is his name. And basically if I could sum it up like those closest to us can see us better than we can see ourselves. Right. And there really is no hiding. In a relationship, like an intimate relationship, right?
It's like whether or not we, sometimes we talk about, you know, this poor communication. No, you're communicating. You're just communicating that you're angry and frustrated and hate them. You know,
Jay Dee: I say that all the time. First you have to change your adjustment and change your assumptions. Before you work on communication, because lots of people say, oh, communication is the first thing. No. You can communicate very well and very eloquently that you hate them. Yeah, that's
Sheldon Mills: not gonna happen.
That you're annoyed that you're teed off at them because they're not, you know, your expectations or validation or making you ha like all these things these hidden contracts that we throw in there.
Jay Dee: Yeah. I just started listening to the last PO podcast that was all about contracts. I have a tendency to tell people, you know, about covert contracts in their marriage.
They'll do something with an expectation of getting something in return, but nobody's told anybody what the contract is. You know, so I call them covert contracts because they're kind of under the table. Everybody knows they're there, but nobody knows exactly what the rules are.
Jeff Corrigan: You've got these expectations, but you've never communicated those expectations clearly.
Jay Dee: And then you get mad when they don't get met. Yeah. You're
Jeff Corrigan: like, Oh, wait. That's like the.
Sheldon Mills: The whole premise of no more Mr. Nice guy, right? It's like trying to do things in order to get love, to get validation, to get sex or, you know, and it's just and then they become really jerks when it's
Jay Dee: not.
Yeah. Anyways, so I was saying, you know, the first thing is that I think the next thing is you have to assume that your spouse loves you and then everything they do is them trying to show you that they love you and either they've missed or you've missed.
So either they communicated it poorly or they just, you know, didn't one time because we're human. We do that. Or you've received it poorly and missed what they were trying to do. And so if you go into your marriage, every time you feel hurt by your spouse to stop and go, okay, hold on. I know that they love me.
So this was either something that was unintentional, or I misunderstood what they're doing. And then you can go to them and say, Hey, I know that you love me. This hurt me. Which one of these is it? Because I think most of the time it's like, Oh, no, I was trying to do something nice for you and it missed, you know, it didn't have the outcome.
I thought it was going to happen. Most of the time. We don't walk around trying to be malicious towards our spouses, but we have a lot of times that we walk around and our spouses think that we're trying to be malicious towards them because you're just in a bad mood or whatever and everything will just set you off and You can have a lot of fights, like, why did you move that thing?
Well, I moved it because I thought you were going that way. I was wrong, you went the other way, and now I put it in your way. And that's not helpful. I'm sorry. Maybe I should have asked you where you were going.
Jeff Corrigan: Exactly. That goes really well, though. I think that principle applies. Across the board, honestly, with whether, you know, whether you are starting a business together with your spouse or just whatever you're doing together is, it's just assuming the best, right?
It's first of all, bringing 100 percent ownership responsibility to the relationship of Hey, my goal is to do everything in my power to, you know, support your happiness. And then at the same time, right? Assuming the same from the other person. That's really cool. I like that a lot.
Jay Dee: Yeah.
Especially in those high stress situations where like starting a business together is high stress. Yeah. You know, most businesses fail. They're always going to involve a whole lot of, yeah, stress and anxiety and a lot of extra work. Usually, especially when you're ramping up. Yeah. Those are the times that you have to be like really intentional about being loving and receiving love because there's a lot of potential for it to go wrong.
Sheldon Mills: I was going to say, one thing that's helped me a ton is recognizing the moment I feel that my wife or my spouse, that we're no longer on the same team, right? So whenever there's a conflict or a problem and it goes from there's the struggle or they're the... There's this problem too.
They are the problem. They are causing. Do you know what I mean? All of a sudden I've recognized my mindset is wrong. Right. And it's not in a place where it's going to like foster good communication and resolution. I recognize this myself, the moment I, in my mind, they're, we're not on the same team anymore, then I'm not thinking about it correctly.
Jay Dee: Yeah. Yeah, I'll often bring out the metaphor of two people sitting in a canoe, you know, if you're pointing at the other person going, your side is sinking that's not going to help you. You're both going
Sheldon Mills: in.
Jeff Corrigan: Nice. You're like we're in this boat together. So we may want to work on this, the problem, not the blaming.
Yeah. But battle
Jay Dee: mentality is a big thing. Like people go in, go into marriage and then all of a sudden they start keeping track. Of who's doing what and keeping score. Oh, I did this nice thing for you. You should do something nice for me. And you know, oh, you did this horrible thing. That means I get to do something horrible to you.
I don't know how many spouses I've talked to. Well, they had an affair. I should get to have an affair. That's not how it works. That's just going to make it worse.
Jeff Corrigan: Yeah. That seems a path to disaster path to divorce.
Jay Dee: Absolutely.
Jeff Corrigan: Yeah, I love that. And then the other thing that keeps coming to mind, I noticed you, you talked about, Hey, you know, we started talking about budget, like budget was easier to handle than sex, of course.
And so by a little bit, yeah, but not by much depends on the person. Right. So, but I was going to say okay what kind of. budgeting tips do you give people to say Hey what are some of the principles that you coach people on as far as relationships go? Hey, here's a great way to, and everybody kind of has their own method, right?
For some people might be better to keep separate bank accounts. Some people do it together. I know that I'm not saying one is better than the other, but what have you found to be effective with the couples that you coach?
Jay Dee: I'm definitely on the side of shared bank accounts. I think that's the most efficient one myself.
Okay. Just because I've seen so many couples that as soon as there starts being separate bank accounts, then people start hiding things. And then there's a danger there. So I am very much in favor of full transparency on finances, devices, email accounts. Like at any point. I should be able to hand my wife my phone and go, yeah, go look in through anything you want.
Doesn't matter. There should be no surprises there or no bad surprises. Anyways, there might be a few times that I'm like, maybe you don't want to look right now because I'm trying to buy you an anniversary present and you're going to really surprised. It shouldn't be anything that I'm like ashamed or embarrassed about.
And if there is, then frankly, I think I've already gone down the road of cheating at that point. If you're starting to hide something from your spouse, then. You know, whether it's another person or if it's a cheeseburger that you're trying to hide an order of, you're already starting to hide things from your spouse.
And then they have a tendency to just escalate.
Jeff Corrigan: That's great advice. Actually. I love it. It's yeah, I think if you're ever like trying to hide something from your spouse, it's probably a good indicator that it's not something you should be doing. It's there you go. Right.
Jay Dee: As for finances, I think it depends on the couple.
For us, ours were bad. So we actually went all the way back to Duck all of our credit cards away. We canceled some of them. We did everything cash, like every month we'd pull out a bunch of cash, stick it into envelopes and divvy it up. And we did that for probably a couple years until we kind of got a handle on things and felt like, okay, we knew what we were doing.
And then we frankly went back to credit cards just to get cash back on top of that.
Jeff Corrigan: Yeah. But that was once we had good patterns. If you're managing your budget, credit cards yeah, exactly. When you're managing your budget well the credit card becomes a friend, not a foe in that sense. Oh yeah.
Jay Dee: Like in January, when I showed up to Costco to get my rebate, like they're like, Oh, I don't have enough money in the till for this. Like I'm going to have to go get a manager. And you're like, yeah, they're like, how do you spend this much? I'm like, I got five kids. It doesn't, it goes quick.
Jeff Corrigan: I know. It's always hilarious going to Costco and they're like, wow, what the, you guys is yeah.
You got, we eat a lot of food at home.
Jay Dee: Absolutely. It's great. But no, like the cash envelope thing, if you're in dire straits and can't get your head above water, I will swear by that. I mean, it makes you watch every single penny coming out. It hurts when you're taking cash on an envelope at a grocery store and you only took your grocery envelope and you get to the till and realize, Oh, I'm short and I don't have another way to pay for it.
So I got to put stuff back. That'll teach you quick, the budget.
Jeff Corrigan: Nice. That's a really, yeah, cool method. Awesome.
Jay Dee: I got a question for you.
Sheldon Mills: Our podcast is all about helping people go from where they are to where they want to go. And first and foremost, I think in most people's lives is relationships, especially with their spouse.
The question is this. What practical tips do you have to help people improve their relationships or intimacy? You know, where do people start if we want a marriage that we're happy to be in, you know what I mean?
What are some boots on the ground tips and things you can give
Jay Dee: people? Okay. So it depends entirely on what's going on in their marriage. Unfortunately, I'd love to be able to give like a cookie cutter. Hey, here's how you solve all your marriage problems from A to Z kind of thing. But unfortunately, I haven't found one that works for everything.
The thing about, make your goal loving your spouse, not feeling good. I think that's your number one step, no matter what your issues are. The assuming your spouse loves you. That's my actually core criteria for coaching. If I can't get two spouses to say. Yeah, I think my spouse loves me.
I don't know if coaching is going to work, like it might, but if you can't both at least tell me that you love each other, then we're going to have a problem. You might need a therapist and not a coach. My job is to take marriages from like good or maybe mediocre or even struggling to great. But if they're at oh, we hate each other, I'm like, well, you need a doctor, you know, it's on life support, it's not okay, and I don't want to be responsible for it dying on the table so, but by and large, 99 percent of the time people are like, yeah, I do believe that my spouse loves me, I'm like, okay, good let's, we can build on that's a really good firm foundation, as long as you, , actively are thinking about that.
And then after that, communication skills, like I said you have to have that core first, but then start working on communication. And there's a whole bunch of, I made a list once of bad communication habits that people do, and if you get rid of all of them, you'll probably be okay. And Do you want the list?
Yeah. Yeah. I can rail them off. Let's do it. Okay. So kitchen sinking is the first one I called it. So that's like when you have a fight and you just start pulling everything out by the kitchen sink in your fight. So like the fight starts with, Oh, you left your shoes in front of the door and Oh, and you left your keys on the counter and you never took out the garbage and you didn't do this and you didn't do this and you didn't do this.
No. Pick one topic. Stick with the one topic. Have a conflict about that. You can talk about all the other things another time. Okay. Because when people kitchen sink, they're not really trying to solve a problem. All they're doing is exploding all over their spouse, trying to beat them down with all the things they think are wrong with them.
Yeah. That's how you treat an enemy. That's not how you treat someone you love. Right. The next one is self summarizing. Is when you... You make an argument, and then you just make your own argument again and again, using different words. You basically just start summarizing yourself over and over again.
You're assuming that they're not paying attention. You're not really listening to what they're saying. You're just trying to hammer them over the head with what you're saying. Next one is presumptive attributions. So that's like when your spouse says, or you say, oh, you did this because of this thing, you know, when they mind read on you and, or you on them and you're saying, oh no, I know what your intentions were.
I know what you were trying to do with this. We don't know what we're trying to do. We're terrible mind readers. I don't even know what I'm trying to do half the time. You know, how am I supposed to know what my spouse is trying to do? After 22 years, she is still radically alien to me. I mean, sometimes I can see things coming, I'm like, I knew you were going to do that.
And other times I'm like, came out of left field, had no idea.
Jeff Corrigan: Your predictions are about 50 50 still.
Jay Dee: Yeah. And that's much better than they used to be. The next one was cross complaining. So that's when like you have a complaint and then they fire back with a complaint of their own. Yeah. Yeah.
Then you're not trying to solve an issue. Then you're just trying to be even that's back to that, like battle mentality. And we're keeping score. Yeah, we really should do a stop in the, in humility, say, okay, let's talk about your issue. Let's resolve that first. And then at the end, gay, Hey, I've got it.
I've got something I'd like to bring up too, if that's okay, we can do it now. We can do it later, but you know, stick to the one topic. It's kind of like kitchen sinking, but it's back and forth instead of on one side. And the last one is a prescription. So when you're like, you know, what you should do is you should do this.
Don't do that. You know, if they ask for help and say, Hey, I don't know what to do, help me. Then you can tell them, Hey, this is what I would do. But we don't usually do that. We usually say, you know what your problem is? This is your problem. And this is what you should do about it. And. I know best, you know, if you can get rid of those things, I've had people take that list, my coaching clients, and I tell them to stick it up on your fridge and tell your kids what they all are.
And then have your kids referee your communication because nothing will change your communication style faster than your child telling you that's not good communication. That's bad. That's not effective. You're too. I was complaining. Great kitchen stinking dad. Yeah. And they'll do it. The ones that are serious are like, yeah, I'm going to do it.
I'm going to teach my kids what they are. I'm like, good. And then the next week, I'm like, how many kids called you out? Like too many times. This was awful. No, it was good. And then the next week, I was like, it was better.
Sheldon Mills: That's funny. You got through that list and immediately I'm like going back to huh.
Yeah. Yeah. I've done that. Yeah. Yeah. I've done that.
Jay Dee: I've done all those things like most people have, like they may miss one or two and they're like, Oh, I don't do that one. I'm like, okay, but you do the other six. Don't you? Oh, yeah. Don't feel so good about yourself. But
Jeff Corrigan: and that's a, I think that's a really great impactful list, honestly. Cause that, I mean, number one is what do you think, what's the principle comes out of that? What, cause all of those seem to kind of. It's just Hey, stop battling, right? You're working together, not against one another.
Is that your end goal with that piece?
Jay Dee: Yeah. Basically if you take all those things and invert them, then you have an actually really good basis for good communication. Yeah. You know, so, you stay on topic don't summarize yourself, summarize what your spouse is saying instead. Yeah. They tell you something, you're like, Hey, did this is what I heard.
Did I hear that? Right. You know, and they can tell you, yeah, you did. Or no, you didn't. Then they feel heard. Yeah. And you actually understand what they're saying instead of guessing. Yeah. Yeah. Well,
Jeff Corrigan: and that's like what you just said, right? The first step to really great communication is understanding, right?
It's like what you got to understand when the other person's actually, then you said it earlier too, about, you know, a lot of times we throw out like you did this because of this, or like we, we were predicting or not predicting. What are we saying? We're yeah. Presuming what the other person's thinking or doing and why they're doing it.
And it's almost never true. And that, I mean, that's true in business communication, but especially in intimate relationships, you know, your family relationships.
Jay Dee: I've realized that people, you know, they always want to be the hero in their own stories. And in order for them to be the hero, there has to be a bad guy.
And usually our spouse ends up being the bad guy for the hero in that. So we got to stop doing that, you know, because too many of us have a hero complex. Yeah.
Jeff Corrigan: What? Oh, that's, all those movies aren't, it's true. You got, they're reinforcing it on every turn, right? It's yeah, you gotta be the hero.
Jay Dee: But if you can change it to be like, no, we're a team, we're the hero together against the world.
Yeah, that's where the gold is like when you realize that no, we're in this together. We're battling the things together There is no your problem and my problem. There's only our problems and Us together in our home. This is our oasis against the entire world that is against us Yeah. That's when you go home and go, yes, I'm home finally, instead of going, Oh, I got to go home and fight with my closest enemy.
You know, that's
Jeff Corrigan: a depressing thought,
Jay Dee: but it's sadly where a lot of people are at. I know. That's why I know a lot of people that they stay at work longer because they're like, it's easier at work. You know, at work, I get complimented at work. I know what the task is. I don't have to guess at work. I don't have to feel like I'm walking on eggshells, you know, and it goes both ways.
Usually the person who's a workaholic and trying to stay there instead of being home, you know, their spouse doesn't really want them home that much anyways, because when they do, it just means conflict as well. I mean, they're both usually starting the conflicts but they get stuck in a dynamic and it's hard to change that.
It can be done, but it's hard. Yeah. I
Sheldon Mills: found that yeah, when my spouse and I, we're each other's champions and the connection is good, everything else can be crazy. The kids. And life is okay. But if that there's that disconnect and there's that conflict, then doesn't matter that my boss complimented me and I got a raise and do you know what I mean?
Like those core things aren't there, then the nothing else is
Jay Dee: great. Yeah, absolutely. Like he, even with, you know, kids are a conflict, right? When I. We've got five kids. So our older two kids, they put themselves to bed. Our younger ones, we still put them to bed. So when we put them to bed at nine o'clock, nine 30 and then I go to bed cause we have a TV in our bedroom.
So we hang out there and I'm like, that's it. Like once I'm in my bedroom with my wife, I'm like, that's it. Like there are no more problems in the world. I'm home safe. I made it through the day. We're good now, you know, and no matter what conference during the day, I can always go, you know, it's only five more hours still until I get to go to bed, you know,
Jeff Corrigan: that is awesome.
Sheldon Mills: I have more questions if
Jeff Corrigan: Great. Keep, rattle them off, man.
Sheldon Mills: Let's see. Again, as I said a little bit ago, you don't shy away from some topics that a lot of people do. I have a question for you. What are some practices to help keep sex and intimacy fun and open instead of heavy?
And intimidating, because I think like when there's conflict, it's like, what do they say? When in a, you know, a spouse relationship, when things are great, sex is only 20%. When things are terrible, it's 80%,
Jay Dee: right? Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So I think the first thing, man, it's hard to figure out the first thing on top of the previous first things.
You know, cause those are still the foundation for everything. I think one of the struggles that people get into is that frankly, they don't have sex often enough. And once you stop, it's hard to get started again. You know, whether that's, Oh, we've stopped for two weeks or we stopped for two years or we stopped for two decades. It's hard to start. I've had clients who have stopped for 25 years and then went, how do we start again?
I'm like, yeah, that is a big ship to move. But we can do it a little bit at a time. Here's let's get started. And we and I've helped them do it, but it's hard. It's a lot easier if you can catch it two weeks in than 25 years in. But even after two weeks or, you know, a month or whatever, like it's hard cause everything is just, there's so much pressure on it, right.
And it's so intimidating. Whereas if you get in a cycle of. Hey, maybe not have sex every night kind of thing, but at least like intimacy every night. So like I said, like we put the kids to bed, we lock the doors, we get into bed and the clothes come off. That's the rule. If you're in bed, clothes are off off.
That's the deal. And we started that, Oh, I don't know, a decade or a bit more. And my wife actually used to come to bed naked and then put clothes on later to go to sleep because she didn't like sleeping naked. She would get naked for our time to like just be together, watch TV or whatever.
That kind of takes down a lot of the stress level because, you know, you get couples that I get wives who are like I don't know how to get undressed in front of my spouse. He's never seen me naked. What? I'm like, oh yeah. Because you know, they'll have sex. Did they have kids? How did they get kiss
Oh yeah. They'll have kids, but they'll, they've had sex in the dark under the covers. You know, she changes in the bathroom, you know, they'll be married like a decade and a half, two decades. And they're like, he's never seen me naked. I'm like, okay. We're gonna start with dim lights.
That's what we're gonna start with. We'll find baby steps. So we can do this, you know, I've had someone be like, Hey, how about this? What if you were blindfolded? Then you don't see you naked, but he sees you naked. And they're like, I could do that. I'm like, okay, we'll try that.
You can find some ways to do it. But I think just that idea of, yeah. Increasing the frequency of intimacy, even if it's not sex, like being naked together is still intimate. It doesn't necessarily have to lead to something but it takes down some of the barriers. It's a lot easier to go from being naked in bed together like Rubbing her back while you're watching TV or something to sex than it is to go from fully clothed, not in the bedroom and go, Hey, do you want to have sex, which is a terrible thing to say?
Don't ever ask that because too many guys, they do. I've done this. And you know, if you ask a woman who has like responsive desire, so she doesn't spontaneously think about sex. She only has a sex drive, like when it responds to like, when you're already starting to do something and you ask, Hey, do you want to have sex?
Yeah. The first thing she thinks is, am I in the mood? No, I'm not in the mood. The answer is no. And now you've solidified a no in her head. So it's a bad question. Don't do that. Sorry. Okay. We're going to
Sheldon Mills: come back to the responsive stuff after we're done with this. Keep going.
Jay Dee: Okay. We can go to that too. Okay.
So yeah. Increase just. Intimacy. And then from there, I'd say, you know, try increasing frequency of sex as well.
Jeff Corrigan: And intimacy, as described by you, I think can, could, what could that include? In bed, naked, but then also, I think it can include a lot of things, right? Back rubs, touching, hand holding, all those things really could kind of lead that direction in my thinking.
But what are you thinking?
Jay Dee: So if we're talking about, if we're specifically talking about how do you make sex less kind of heavy and intimidating, but I'm going to say, okay, intimacy, I'm going to lean a little bit more towards the physical type stuff. If we're talking about intimacy, holistically, absolutely.
I mean, all that's going to build on it, right? You have to have a good relationship for most people to actually want to have sex with each other. Yeah. You know, women in particular, men are a little easier to compartmentalize those things. You know, the joke is always that, you know, men feel love through sex and women need to feel loved to have sex.
and that's kinda like there's a circle there
I'm not at all saying you don't have to do all the other stuff. I've had couples that are like, you know, we're just roommates now. We don't have any intimacy whatsoever, physical or otherwise. I'm like, okay, well then we're going to start small. We're going to start with Hey, invite them for a walk.
Hey, let's play a board game. Let's read a book together. Like we're going to start on like low level. Easy intimacy things. We're not going to talk about sex at all for the first while because that is a big jump. Yeah, roommates too. Hey, let's start having sex again. Gotcha. So
Jeff Corrigan: I said I was just wanting to clarify that.
Oh, it's a good question.
Jay Dee: I wish I had a different word, you know, so I could differentiate. I guess I'll go with physical intimacy if that works. That's
Jeff Corrigan: great. I get it.
Jay Dee: All right. So yeah, if you Let's say you haven't had sex in a month, right? And then you try to initiate, you know, that is a lot of pressure on both sides, you know You're really worried.
You're gonna get rejected because I don't know when's that gonna be the next time She's really worried that she's not gonna be in the mood or things aren't gonna go well Or maybe she doesn't want to right now But if she says no now then you might not initiate her a while and she feels like she should And there's a whole bunch of stuff going on.
Yeah, and you know It's hard to jump over that. So if you can ramp up frequency more often even if it doesn't include sex, then it's easier. I think also if you can talk about sex, that's a lot easier too. I get a lot of couples that are like, we've never talked about sex and I know, Sheldon is going to ask the same question, they don't have kids, yes they do have kids, they've just never talked about sex, together or with their kids, you know? Well, that's hard because you can't grow if you can't talk about it.
Jeff Corrigan: Yeah, and I like the point of hey, more frequency, obviously, I think, it's not just about like, yeah more, more, more, but I think, There's a flow that happens when you are, like you said, like you're engaged more often you're intimate more often, you're together more often, and yeah, I like that because you're going to, it's just like anything else in life, the more consistent you are with something, the more inflow you get, right? And so, yeah, well,
Jay Dee: I think there's two things. There's one, there used to be a management podcast I used to listen to called, I can't remember what it was called. I think it might've just been like the management podcast or something like a decade ago.
I don't even know if it's still around, but he used to have this thing called, that he called the Christmas principle. Yeah. And he was talking about doing employee reviews. And you'd be like, you know, if you do employee reviews once a year, you're going to suck at them every year. It's like Christmas.
We all suck at Christmas because it only comes up once a year. And so we're all panicked and we're all rushing and we don't know what we're doing and then we're all stressed out. And. I think it's the same thing with sex. If you're only having it once a year, everything's going to be awkward and stressful and anxious and everything.
But the more you do it, the easier it comes because I don't want to say you, you get into a habit of it because that's a whole other problem. If you just have habits that you're following through but there is like an ease that comes up with with a higher frequency. You're like, no I know how to initiate better.
I know how to get in the mood easier. We, you know, we can be more efficient if we need to. Cause you know, sometimes you have two hours and sometimes you have 20 minutes. So those are two different games.
Jeff Corrigan: True that.
Jay Dee: But also yeah, the more you do it, you know, the better you get at it.
You know, I would say I'm way better at sex now than I was 22 years ago. Yeah. I hope I am. My wife says I am. I think I am. I don't have anyone else to ask, so.
Jeff Corrigan: That's a good thing. I think so, at least. Yeah.
Jay Dee: But you know, if you talk to, what, Olympic athletes, you know, they'll just say, Oh, you know, the way you get to this level is you do the same thing, what, like 10, 000 times or whatever.
You know, it's just. repetition over and over again. And I don't think it has to be boring repetition. But you definitely gain more skills as you go along and that just makes it better for everybody. Yeah. Sorry. And I
Jeff Corrigan: sidetracked you a bit, but what, where were you going the next step? You said there was a
Jay Dee: okay.
So we're talking about it. Yeah. If you can't talk about it, then you can't resolve any issues, right? Like if something hurts, you know, you have to be able to tell your spouse that, Hey, that hurts. Yeah. And then you have to figure out, okay, well, it doesn't hurt all the time. Does it only hurt sometimes?
Is it different positions? Is it because you're not like warmed up enough yet? What's going on? Or sometimes it's just you find out that Oh, I'm allergic to asparagus apparently. And you know, don't eat asparagus or something like weird things happen, but you don't know unless you talk about it.
Right. And so I think part of that Sheldon mentioned some of my yeah. Resources on my website. One of the things I built was I called it ours exploration list. So I took everything I could find that I didn't think was morally reprehensible and built a giant list of here's all the like physically intimate activities that you can do together.
And it's massive. It's 400 things. And some of them are like simple you know, I like being kissed on the lips kind of thing. Do you like being kissed on the lips? And then it's like a yes, no, maybe list. And both spouses fill it out and they're like, yeah, I'm willing to do this or I don't want to do this or I'll try this once maybe kind of thing.
And or no, I don't want to do this. I don't want to talk about this. Don't ever bring this up. It will shut me down immediately kind of thing. But those things are important to know too. Yeah, definitely.
Jeff Corrigan: Yeah. That's
Jay Dee: a good point. And you know, I've had. Literally hundreds of couples fill this out.
And a lot of them are like, man, there are things on this list. I didn't even know you could do. I know it's amazing. I spent a long time trying to find all these things and then taking all the stuff you know, cause if you go out there, most of the people would be like, Oh, you know, go watch porn, go have a threesome.
I'm like, Nope, we're not doing that. We're going to stick with two people in a room kind of thing. Or not necessarily in the room, you know, it could be a kitchen, whatever. As long as no one else is around but I think this gives them a framework and or like a workbook to start talking about some of these things. So then they can work through and go, Oh, you said you want to try this. And I said, I'd be open to trying this. You know, let's talk about this. Let's figure out, you know, you kind of make a plan.
How could we try this? When could we try this? Why would you want to try this kind of thing? And it opens up doors for them to start talking. A lot of them have jumped into this saying we've never had a conversation about sex before and this was the first thing I did and I went, oh, you jumped off the high dive.
This is, I
Jeff Corrigan: actually have a smaller one.
Went from never to right off the high dive. Is it like a free resource or do you download it? How does it work?
Jay Dee: It's on my store. It's, I think I have it for 15 or 20 a camera. Oh, gotcha. I'll stop my head. I'll do a little pitch for him. He just
Sheldon Mills: did it. Oh, you're probably going to say this, huh?
Jay Dee: just transitioned to
Sheldon Mills: digitally because I purchased it and me and my wife are like just finishing up doing it digitally as well, which is really cool because it automatically syncs it up. You don't have to go through the 400 line items.
Jay Dee: Yeah. Yeah, the nice thing is it just ignores all the stuff that neither of you are interested in.
That's really helpful because then you're like, Oh, we don't even have to look at these. That's good. And then it breaks it up Hey, these are the things that like you both are interested in. You should go do those. And here's the things that one of you are interested in. One of you said, maybe, okay, I'll try it.
And then you can talk about these. And then here's a list of Oh, one said they want it. The other one said they don't want it. You should probably talk about that conflict because then you have to talk about the things that You know, are uncomfortable to talk about, too. Yeah. Or else you'd get those covert contracts.
Also good communication. Yeah. Also good communication.
Jeff Corrigan: So really this has been a study on good communication and how it relates to your physical intimacy, your relationship intimacy, all those things.
Jay Dee: You know what? I actually have people that show up for coaching as couples and they will wait to have their fights on the coaching call.
Like they'll be in the middle of a fight at home and go, hold on, we're not handling as well. Can we put this on pause until our coaching call? And then they'll show up to the column. They're like, Hey. We have a fight. We're in the middle of, can we have the fight here? I'm like, absolutely. Let's do it.
You're like, I'll
Jeff Corrigan: be the referee here.
Jay Dee: Yeah. Basically. So they'll say something and I'll stop them when I'm like, okay, hold on. Did you see what you did there? You know, what did you think you were trying to do? And then I asked the other one, what did you think they were trying to say? And they're like, They won't match up at all kind of thing like, you know, of course he didn't because you both did that poorly here.
Let's try this again. Try saying this instead. And yeah I'll basically mediate for them and translate for them through some of their fights. And usually like they'll get through, we'll do 2 or 3 of those on a call. Not in a single call like in subsequent calls and then after that, they're like, Hey, we had a fight on our own and we handled it.
Well, I'm like, good for you. I'm so proud of you. That's great. And then they're good. They're off to the races.
Jeff Corrigan: That is awesome. How has this helped you? I mean, obviously coaching people helps you the most probably. How has it helped you in your relationship?
Jay Dee: Honestly, I really like helping people and so there are some calls that are like, you know, I get on the call, I see their like intake work form kind of thing and what they want to work on and what the situation is and I'm like, Oh man, this is going to be a hard one. I don't know what the answer is going to be, but we'll figure it out and I almost go into the call sometimes with a sense of you know, not dread, but definitely trepidation, right?
And then, but by the end, it always works out. You know, because if you have, you got three people on a call who are all focused on trying to make the marriage better. Yeah. I like, you can't fail in that kind of situation. Even with two people, honestly, if you get two people together, both are really invested in working on the marriage.
It might take them longer than it does with a coach, but they'll get there eventually. Most of the people I get who signed up for coaching, they're like, we know we can do this. We just, we want it faster. We don't want to spend a decade slogging through this. We want to spend like a couple months slugging through this, you know?
Yeah. And okay. Or you know, we just can't get past this thing. Like we're not, it's not sinking us, but we just, we can't get past this one issue. Let's talk through it. We'll figure it out. And they do, but it's them that does the work. Like I'm just there pointing out the things that are obvious if you're not in this situation.
Yeah. Cause everything in your head, you know, makes sense in your head. But sometimes when you say it in front of somebody else, they look, kind of look at you and go, did you listen to what you just said? Then you listen to what you say. And you're like, Oh, that doesn't make sense at all. Like I shouldn't do that.
Jeff Corrigan: That's awesome. Sheldon, you got a thought.
Sheldon Mills: Well, I have another question, but I know we're getting close on time here. So I want to be sensitive to
Jay Dee: your time. I'm good on time. It's up to you.
Sheldon Mills: Frankly this has been an awesome conversation and hopefully we'll have you back again Especially when you get some questions from people.
I want to go back to the side note, but I don't want to, I don't want to say too much, but about a high desire husband with the response of wife to say, Hey, you want to have sex is a terrible thing to do. Yeah. Elaborate.
Jay Dee: Okay. So the whole discussion of I desire versus low desire versus and responsive desire versus spontaneous desire. It's a big topic. Honestly I actually took a whole bunch of my blog posts and stuck them together in a free ebook. It's on my site. People can go there. You guys can put links in your show notes, right?
Yes, we will. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it's there. If anyone's listening is at uncovering intimacy. com slash sex drive. No spaces or anything like that. It'll just shunt you straight to the free ebook. It's just a whole bunch of podcasts about that topic that I stuck together. And it goes through yeah, responsive desire, spontaneous desire being.
Willing to have sex versus being like wanting to have sex arousal, non concordance, which is a whole other topic and the dual control model of arousal, which is a whole other topic. Frankly, it's a big topic. I could talk for two hours about these things, but now, you know, we can talk about any questions that absolutely we could but the basic premise is, you know, some people generally men.
Tend to have sex drives that like, you know, you just want sex out of the blue, you know, you're sitting in a chair and all you're just on, you're like, yeah, sex sounds really good right now, or you see your wife and you're like, yeah, I want to go have sex with her right now. And. Responsive desire is again, generally women, especially after they start having kids, their sex drives have a tendency to go more responsive.
They're just not out of the blue going to go you know what? I could really go for some sex right now. It's going to be a lot more of the like, someone's going to ask something stupid hey, do you want to have sex? And then they go well, it's been a while. I guess I'll, I should say yes.
All right. And I'll say yes. And then you kind of get started and then they get in the mood and then their sex drive wakes up and they're like, Oh yeah, it turns out I do want this. I just didn't know it kind of thing. And that's the like responsive desire. Their sex drive has to have something to respond to.
Yeah. And for some people they respond easier for other people. It's harder. Yeah. That's the long and short of it. So instead of asking things like, Hey, do you want to have sex? I would suggest that you ask things that are like precursors to sex. So I don't ask my wife if she wants to have sex. I ask her if she would like to have a back rub because I know she will always want a back rub.
And, but the deal is she also knows that just because I offer a back rub doesn't mean that it's automatically going to lead to sex. What it is it's an opportunity for me to get her turned on. And then the balls in my court and sometimes it's going to work and I can some days I'm like, yeah, I think this is going to work.
We're going to try this and she'll get an absolutely fantastic massage. And at the end, she'll be like, yeah, let's do more. And other days I'm like, there's not a chance, but that's okay. She's still going to get an absolutely fantastic massage. And then she's going to go to sleep and I'll go to sleep because I go to sleep as soon as my head hits the bill.
I joke that I can fall asleep while I'm talking like we've been mid prayers at night and while I'm saying prayers, I have fallen asleep, you know, I've done that. Yeah,
Jeff Corrigan: I'm the same way. I'm very much a boom out as soon as I'm
Jay Dee: ready. It's worse when you fall asleep while she's praying. That's what I fight to stay awake.
Jeff Corrigan: I have about time for one more question, I was going to ask you something we ask a lot of our, and you've maybe have answered this already, but if you can, you know, expand your mind a bit and be creative for this option, potentially is one thing our listeners can do today.
to, begin on the road of improving their marriage. Essentially, it's Hey, how do what's and you've already talked about several things that I think are pretty applicable. Hey, go download my free resource. Okay, go start there. Answer the 400 things or something like that.
But is there something that you would recommend generally to couples say, Hey what's kind of the core thing you would say? One simple thing you can do today to get you started on this road.
Jay Dee: The core thing, the thing I start everybody on is that idea of assume that your spouse loves you and then filter everything through that.
If you just do that, you have that, that will start a marriage on the right path. It is hard and you know, you're going to forget guaranteed. Everyone who's listening here, I bet you 90 percent of them are going to be like, all right, I'm going to try that because most people don't and then they're going to completely forget.
And in two days, unfortunately, it's going to be a long forgotten memory. So stick a reminder in
Jeff Corrigan: your, slap it on your fridge. People remember
Jay Dee: your life, wife loves you, or your husband loves you. And then pop that up like every two days, I've had people do that. It actually helps them. That is
Jeff Corrigan: great, really like, you can't have a more simple and effective habit, I think, for getting you started on the right road.
That's awesome. So it's a,
Sheldon Mills: it's a reframing of the mindset that you have to have in order to go from battling each other to working together, right? If that's not there, then you're battling each other. You're not working together.
Jay Dee: Yeah, everything builds on that. I can't do anything unless you have that basically.
Yeah, everything else is way harder. Yeah, I was also going to say if people want to check out the our sexploration list thing, I actually made a coupon code for it. Oh, nice. Like 25 percent off. I think I did actually just 25 percent off almost everything in the store. So whatever they want to go check out other than coaching, you know, there's some things that are a little harder to discount.
Yeah, I understand. But the coupon code is HABITMASTERS because I figured I'd make it easy. Yeah. It's 25 bucks off. So, or 25 percent off. Don't say 25 bucks.
Jeff Corrigan: I was like, you made
Jay Dee: 25%, right? 25%. Cause I was like, wait, it's
Jeff Corrigan: 15 for five bucks. I'm in.
Jay Dee: Yeah. Right. Freebie. And then they can check out all the things that Sheldon's been looking at.
There's also on the front of my page, you know, if there are people that are like, they haven't talked about sex at all, I have a thing on there that's 37 questions to ask your spouse about sex. And that's a little easier than jumping into. 400 line workbook. Yeah,
Jeff Corrigan: absolutely. Well, and I think this is great because honestly, like you said earlier you know, somebody gave you the somewhat vague advice of, Hey, marriage is hard work.
Hey, marriage is hard work. And here's a few ways you can start the work. So that's how you start it. There you go, guys. Perfect. Well, everything I wish I had been told. Yeah, anything else you want to ask us or tell us before we shut this one down? No, I honestly,
Jay Dee: I'm looking forward to doing this again because Sheldon brought up just so many things that I'm like, Oh, I want to tackle all of them and we don't have time.
All right. That's
Jeff Corrigan: perfect. Well, I'll have to run a run another episode, but we really appreciate you being on with us and thank you for everything. Appreciate it.
Jay Dee: No problem.
Jeff Corrigan: Thank you for joining us. Thank you so much to Jay Dee for joining us. That was a phenomenal conversation and hopefully you guys got as much out of it as we did.
It was a lot of fun. I hope I wasn't like too personal. Cut that out, Jeff. Just cut that out. Cut that. Yeah, no, it's okay. I think impactful and we can all learn a lot from other people's experiences and , that's what makes this show pretty awesome. So if you guys love the show, please share it with someone.
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